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Hello! I am from Russia. Excuse me for my bad active English, because I have no speech practice and only read with the dictionary!
I translated some Thackray’s songs into Russian. My musical abilities are much worse, than poetic, but I want to try to sing the songs as I will be able. Unfortunately, I can’t precisely copy a melody using only hearing. I need musical notation (not only chords which I found here) that it turned out well. If can, help please!First of all:
The Blacksmith and theToffeeMaker
Lah-Di-Dah
Ulysses
The Ballad of Billy Kershaw
On Again! On Again!
Leopold Alcox
The Black Swan
& (I will translate it later)
The Bantam CockI understand that the typographical notation most likely doesn’t exist as in the majority of songs (except The Black Swan) Jake changes quantity of syllables in different quatrains or couplets (I don’t know as correctly in English the repeating melodic block is called). Therefore it is difficult to write the notation to Jake’s melodies as it is necessary to write a separate melody for each block. Any publisher won’t publish such long score.
However in Russian translations I unified quantity of syllables in blocks. Jake’s style unfortunately was a little lost, but it was made for two reasons:
1 – The Russian poetic-song tradition doesn’t love “chaotic” verses.
2 – The Russian words are longer, than English therefore it is necessary to do lines a little more long as much as possible to keep sense. Generally I added excess syllables in upbeats (in zero steps) and in weak shares of a step. (Beatles’s verses can be translated precisely observing a rhythm but Thackray’s verses as well as Brassens’s verses are very sated with thoughts).
Thus in the Russian version it is possible to write the approximated melody for all blocks now.For example, for “On Again! On Again!” such rhythmic matrix turned out:
wsw|SwwSww|SwwSww|S
wsw|SwwSww|SwwSww|S
w|SwwSw
|SwwS w |SwwS w |S w S w |S
wsw|SwwS w |SwwS w |S w S w |S
[the last line at repetition]:
sw|SwwSww|SwwSww|SwwSww|S[Coda]:
sw|SwwSww|SwwSww
sw|SwwSww|SwwS
wsw|SwwSww|SwwSww|SwwSww|S«|» – step border
«S» – strong share & syllable with obligatory accent
«s» – weak share & syllable with optional accent
«w» – weak share & syllable without accent«The Blacksmith and theToffeeMaker»:
sw|S wwS ww|S
sw|S wwS ww|S
sw|S wwS ww|S
sw|S wwS ww|S , swSwsw|S wwS ww|S
sw|S wwS ww|S
sw|S wwS ww|S
sw|S wwS ww|S, wSw|S w S
sw|SwswSw|S w S w |S
w|S w S
w S w |S
w S w |S
wSww|S (or wSwsw|S )If you understood me and if you, having good ear for music, you can write for me the approximated melody on this rhythm, please make it in any tonality, convenient for you. I am able to transpose a melody You can write down the notation for me not only traditionally on five lines, but having simply replaced in a matrix of the letter “S, s, w” with letters: C – do, C# – do sharp, Cb – do flat, D-re and so on. I will be able to understand it. If everything turns out, I will publish other rhythmic matrixes.
If it is possible, I also need the notation of melodic introductions and breaks.
If you already have any home notes which you made for yourself, it isn’t necessary to do excess work for me. I will be able to change the English notation for the Russian texts.Yours faithfully
DmitryGood luck in finding this, Dmitry! That’s a lot to ask. May I make one suggestion: if you have Jake on CD, then find a Tascam CD-VT2 (or an older, cheaper version). This ingenious device allows you to slow down the music without lowering the pitch. It’s very useful for learning complicated guitar riffs, for example. If you sit alongside it with a piano or guitar, you should be able to annotate the melodies. It will take a long time!
Welcome, Dmitry
John Watterson shared with me the wonderful performance in Russian of On Again! On Again!
The only sheet music currently available can be found here on Amazon uk:
It contains some of the songs you want (On Again, Leopold, Lah di Dah, Bantam Cock) but only has a melody line and chords.
Good luck with your work!
[quote=”Jonathan Sims” post=3580]That’s a lot to ask. May I make one suggestion: if you have Jake on CD, then find a Tascam CD-VT2 (or an older, cheaper version). This ingenious device allows you to slow down the music without lowering the pitch. It’s very useful for learning complicated guitar riffs, for example. If you sit alongside it with a piano or guitar, you should be able to annotate the melodies. It will take a long time![/quote]
Alas, to me with my ears I am not sure that I will be able precisely to copy a melody, especially guitar riffs, even in a slowed-up way. (In Russia about people without ear for music speak it “a bear to him stepped on an ear”. It partially about me.) But in any to a case I thank you for council, Jonathan! Probably, I will try to make so if I find nothing.[quote=”Paul” post=3583]John Watterson shared with me the wonderful performance in Russian of On Again! On Again![/quote]
As far as I understood, you speak about Mark Freydkin’s translation which I sent to Watterson. I am glad that it is pleasant to you, Paul. It is a pity that you can’t estimate Freydkin’s text.[quote=”Paul” post=3583]The only sheet music currently available can be found here on Amazon uk:
It contains some of the songs you want (On Again, Leopold, Lah di Dah, Bantam Cock) but only has a melody line and chords.[/quote]
I thank you for the link to the notation. Probably, later I will buy these notes if I translate some more songs from the list of thirteen.[quote=”Jonathan Sims” post=3580]Good luck in finding this, Dmitry! [/quote]
[quote=”Paul” post=3583]Good luck with your work![/quote]
Good luck and to you,Jonathan,Paul!Another idea: Google “is there software to notate music from audio?” Several suggestions are made, but I have not tried them.
Jonathan, I read about such program and I approximately represent at what technical principles it works. The program can precisely to write notes for a pure melody But I strongly doubt that the program will execute well if it is necessary to analyze the “porridge” consisting of the difficult Thackray’s text almost without pauses and of chords.
The exception is possible The Black Swan. There is a melody with accurate structure. And I hope to execute this melody somehow.
But I can’t understand the last sound in lines yet.We’ve lost it / all, lost it / all
&
Now that she’s / gone, now she’s / gone.I hear “g” during B7 chord. But it is more logical if in B7 there is f# sound,
C / B7 C / B7
ege / d#d#g / f# (or g?)Hiya Dmitry !
Your project sounds an interesting and worthwhile one. The difficulty you’re going to have is that when an artist like Jake signs contracts with a publishing company, the song (as written down on the sheet music) becomes the property of the publisher and is theirs to control, and sell to the public in normal business practise. Publishers are naturally possessive of their property and it is their legal right to be so : and this is why you won’t see much in the way of complete sheet music posted on the internet. The owner of a copyrighted work is entirely, legally entitled to publish their music for sale : and the other side of the coin is that publishers are entitled to prevent others for infringing their right to market the songs for profit, by legally preventing others from “publishing” their property by making it freely available (such as on a website) without the publisher’s permission.
So if you need the official sheet music of a song, you have to buy it – and, as with Jake’s songs, if the sheet music is no longer easily bought, it doesn’t change the fact that the sheet music is still the property of the publisher. Your only other option is to work the music out from listening to it, or having someone else do it for you and tell you the results privately. Copyright law in the UK is not as forgiving as in the US, where there are exceptions for students, for practising and skill development. In UK copyright law, even if the original artist says you can use his tune, it is no longer his property and the publisher may (or may not !) choose to act legally to stop someone publicly “publishing” their property.
I hope this explains why you’re having difficulty finding detailed transcriptions online. You’re really going to have to rely on the generosity of people, on forums like this, to provide you with the details you want.
Good luck !
Malcy, I thank for the explanation!
I didn’t know that in Great Britain everything is so strict. (For comparison, I found in the Internet all scores of Brassens and of Beatles in free access. And if I tell that is in a free access on the Russian Internet, and almost nobody files a lawsuit the claim, you will tell that Russia the wild country 👿
From the point of view of common sense such restrictions, sometimes as in this case, seem excessive, because it is impossible to get profit by singing Thackray’s songs. Probably, on a glass of beer it is possible to earn, but it is no more, as I assume. No? But the law is the law, I understand. So I will wait for the private help.Yours faithfully
By the way, I sang in Russian The Black Swan as far as my musical abilities allow. I will be grateful if you tell the opinion. Whether strongly I distorted a melody? The good criticism is useful to me. http://www.chitalnya.ru/work/1167041/
I have just listened to your Black Swan, and to me it sounds beautiful! I’m not a musician, and I don’t know Russian, but I did enjoy hearing that.
Pam
Pam, I thank for the expressed opinion!
(When I listen to myself, it seems to me that I don’t get to notes. 🙁 )Credit where it’s due. I’m in the same metaphorical boat as Pam and I agree with her verdict.
Well done that man.
🙂Dmitry, I agree with Pam and Hugh. Your version is splendid, and if anything, adds an extra haunting quality to what is already a sad song.
To my ears, the notes Jake’s singing are below.
B C# D# E F# G G F# E G F#
Down at The Black Swan, we’ll go sing our love song,E G B C A G F# E F# B
We’ll sit, we’ll booze, we’ve got no-thing to lose :E F# E D# E F#>G G
We’ve lost it all, lost it all.E F# E A G E A G E
Give us an-o-ther pint, one more pint,E E E E E E E F# E A G E
Land-lord, of your ve-ry, ve-ry best bi-tter beer :A G A>G B B
we’ll be here all night.E F# E A G E A G D E E E
We’re on a ben-der, we’re tan-king up, we don’t care :E F# E A G E A G A>G B B
we don’t go home to-night – there’s no-bo- dy there,A G F# A G F# G F# G
now she’s gone, now she’s gone, now she’s gone.Both verses and choruses are the same and the song is in Em. To get the spacing, copy the text into a document using a fixed-space font like Courier New.
I’ve shown slurred notes, where Jake slides from one note to another, as A>G, as in the word “nobody” in the chorus. Jake also slurs from F#>G on the second “it” of the “We’ve lost it all, lost it all” line and the second “she’s” of the “Now she’s gone, now she’s gone” lines in the first verse.
Hope this helps !
Cheers –
Malcy
Malcy, I thank you! You to me very much helped! I perfectly understood all your explanations as it is stated in detail and besides I know the theory of music enough.
Now I see where distorted a melody. Strongest it is at the beginning of a song. Because the song begins with Em chord (I looked at it on the site), but with notes of B C# D# which are typical sequence for B7 chord and it confused me and I sang notes B D D. Now I will make correctly.
With those notes which you wrote in the first line, in my opinion, instead of chords: Em Em/D Cmaj7 B7 (which Jake takes) more logical to strike chords: B7 Em Am/F# (or Am6) B7I shake your hand!
You’re very welcome, Dmitry. If you get stuck on any others I’m sure someone will jump in and help. 😮
There is an old saying in folk music :
If it sounds right, then it is.
If it sounds bad, then it’s wrong.It’s meant to show that there are no rules or logic to music. If there is an F# in the melody, but the chord would not normally have an F# in, then the chord may be a diminished / augmented / +9 / sus version of the chord : however, the rule is : does it sound bad ? That’s the real rule for determining if a song is transcribed properly. If it works when you hear it, but it doesn’t make logical sense, all it means is that the composer has learned the rules… in order to know how to break them. 😮
And… Jake does this all the time. Welcome to the fun ! :o)
Malcy
I understand that the absolute logic in music can’t be, and that the composer who well studied rules can break them. It is sometimes good for music. But, unfortunately, it is difficult for me to guess, where exactly there is this “violation”.
Besides editors who place chords, sometimes do it in own way or even are mistaken.
For example, here http://www.jakethackray.com/images/stories/pdf/BlackSwan.pdf in my opinion, a mistake in a line:
Cmaj7 B7 Cmaj7 B7
we’ve lost it allб lost it all…
I couldn’t understand how it is possible to strike the last two chords with notes which Jake sings:: E F# E D# E F#>G G ! And in my version, I sang the last note of F# (not G, because there is B7 but not augmented B+). But now for reliability I checked the sound range on the analyzer of a frequency range. Correctly, in my opinion, is as in the enclosed drawing.Now I understood the melody of this song. I continue work with other songs. I will have still questions.
Malcy, thanks for time found for me!
[quote=”Pam” post=3597]I have just listened to your Black Swan, and to me it sounds beautiful! I’m not a musician, and I don’t know Russian, but I did enjoy hearing that. [/quote]
My bow for kind words!PS: Here it is for some reason difficult for me to edit the text because the window jumps down after input of each sign.
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